Posts by Doubting Bro

28

More AGM News !!!!!

by yknot in

more agm news continues to trickle in..... .

as a disclaimer i feel the need to draw attention to the fact that all information was initiated by faithful/believing jws so if any lurkers thinks they recognize nuances of an email(s) they might have similarly received.... the original bro/sis holds no responsibility for my actions of reiteration..... .

anywho lets get on it........ .

Doubting Bro

Couple of comments:

France- The ECHR has agreed to consider the WTS appeal over the 60% taxing of contributions. If we are able to prevail it will have a great impact on our status and sit as precedent for any future cases in Europe.

Agreed. And if they lose, the same holds true. This ruling could end up being as significant an event in the WTS history as the Swaggart case here in the US which resulted in them dropping charging for literature. The decision to not set up a for profit entity to sell their literature was one of the biggest business blunders ever by the WTS. See what happens when you don't pay "Caesar's things to Caesar"?

Example: An adult child who lives outside of the household is DFd? While the term ‘Necessary family business’ is a term familiar with those in this circumstance; the GB wants to stress there is no need to push this to the extreme! ….Basically to shorten the example and to get to the heart of the matter….. there must be incentive for the DFd person to want to return. Parents are encouraged to give a little but to leave the DFd child desiring for more while promoting their actions as motivate by their love for Jah. The end result is hope that the DFd child in wanting full access to the abundant love of his parents willl also begin to see his losses in not having a relationship with Jehovah and seek reinstatement.

I love these examples on how to practically apply the Talmud er WT directives. They do this all the time at KM school and at CO meetings with elders. Anyway, this is a pretty interesting development. First, it shows how the WT uses the threat of df'ing as a way to keep the flock in line. Second, it shows how manipulative the WTS is. Third, it clearly shows that the reason for df'ing is not to "keep the congregation clean" but rather to punish those who disagree with their directives. If they were really concerned that a df'ed person would be a bad influence on any JW and cause them to lose their faith, then why the exemption? I hate to be a cynic (not really) but does this potentially lighting of the shunning policy have anything to do with the big dollar French case?? Maybe or maybe now that Jacarz is gone, they're going to lighten up a bit.

This slight shift in the df'ing policy will end up being in a study article I'm sure with some more details. But, I think this is good news for those whose families haven't been displaying "natural affection" and if it eases the pain of shunning, I think that's a good thing.

Thanks Ynot!! Really appreciate all your efforts.

I love these examples on how to practically apply the Talmud er WT directives. They do this all the time at KM school and at CO meetings with elders. Anyway, this is a pretty interesting development. First, it shows how the WT uses the threat of df'ing as a way to keep the flock in line. Second, it shows how manipulative the WTS is. Third, it clearly shows that the reason for df'ing is not to "keep the congregation clean" but rather to punish those who disagree with their directives. If they were really concerned that a df'ed person would be a bad influence on any JW and cause them to lose their faith, then why the exemption? I hate to be a cynic (not really) but does this potentially lighting of the shunning policy have anything to do with the big dollar French case?? Maybe or maybe now that Jacarz is gone, they're going to lighten up a bit.

This slight shift in the df'ing policy will end up being in a study article I'm sure with some more details. But, I think this is good news for those whose families haven't been displaying "natural affection" and if it eases the pain of shunning, I think that's a good thing.

Thanks Ynot!! Really appreciate all your efforts.

88

a reasonable question to any elder/members

by bigmac in

jw
friends

the question is this;.

because you are members of this apostate site, yet are still willing to serve the wt soc as elders,.

do you still hope to .

Doubting Bro

LOL @ oldlightnewshite (great name)! Dude, they have those programs so tightly controlled that if you tried to pull a Little Toe (search his name here and if the link is still active you can actually hear his last talk which was FANTASTIC), they would cut the mike immediately and a standby would be available to finish. It would be pretty awesome though.

I remember when I was a young kid (early 80s), someone shouted at the end of a CA something about the WTS being a cult and a lie. Everyone was in shock. I think he actually interupted the prayer if my memory serves. Needless to say, he was "escorted" out. This must have been in the early 80s because I remember folks picketing outside the building (on a city street) and handing out tracts. I remember my dad almost hitting one person because they jammed a tract into my hands (I was like 8 to 10 at the time).

88

a reasonable question to any elder/members

by bigmac in

jw
friends

the question is this;.

because you are members of this apostate site, yet are still willing to serve the wt soc as elders,.

do you still hope to .

Doubting Bro

While I don't fall into this category, I did at one time and so I can understand the position a little. A couple of points:

1 - I saw no reason (and still don't) to be honest with the WTS given how dishonest that organization has been with me.

2 - Unless the person gave away a ton of personal information, the likelihood of being outed is very low. I highly doubt the elders/ms that post are telling their families about that activity. Plausible deniability is the key for any stuck in JW.

3 - Many elders avoid JCs. I know when I started having doubts (pre this site) I made sure that I wasn't on any JCs. Easy to do.

4 - It may be hypocritical if the person involved is enforcing the WTS's rules. Ultimately, it bothered me that others in the congregation were hearing me give talks and comments that I simply didn't believe. I couldn't care less what I told the WTS management (other elders, COs, etc).

5 - The inside information posts drive the WTS batty!! Doesn't that have value alone? How many meetings in Bethel have they had about stopping leaks? I'll bet those leaks chew up time on a regular basis. Just knowing that someone is getting upset about their precious info being leaked makes my day. Also, those with family in but who are being shunned will be able to understand the changes and look for opportunities to perhaps reconnect. Just because it doesn't have value to you doesn't necessarily make it valueless.

6 - It's not easy to just resign without raising huge questions. It takes time to lay the ground work if you want to just fade into the background. Even when you resign, sometimes the BOE won't accept your resignation (look at OTWO's experience).

7 - It's not even middle management for the WT, it's low management. Honestly, the WTS looks at their elders with distain.

8 - As for the original question, my guess would be that they 1) no longer fear the big A and 2) likely have serious doubts about any resurrection.

I can tell you this much, I'm not sure if there is a God but I am sure that no one will be judged based on their response to the WT. If we indeed answer to a higher power, it will be on the basis of how we treat others and whether we lived a good life. It will not be because of any stupid religion (in my opinion).

28

My story

by Dumi in

jw
friends

hi guys, i joined the forum 2 days ago & i thought i should formally introduce myself to all you fellow apostates and while at it regail you with my story which may be familiar to some/all of you.. i was born into a jw family.

my father converted from traditionalist (south africa) while my mother is a second generation jw.

surfice to say i grew up (together with my three siblings) in the same jw drill... meetings, field ministry and secular school and thats about it.

Doubting Bro

Welcome. Look forward to your contributions.

84

DF'd and struggling....LONG POST........my story.

by confuzzled777 in

how do i make a long story short?

i am fully aware that if anyone in my area were to read this that they will know who i am.

i was disfellowshipped on january 28th 2010 after an "interview" about an evening of bowling with friends and family back in november 2009. i was among 4 who were disfellowshipped and 6 who were publicly reproved.

Doubting Bro

wow confuzzled. I'm so sorry you and your husband were treated this way. It seems that you've figured out that they were going to make an example of someone and chose you. I've heard of party situations from time to time but inevitability it includes an unmarried couple hooking up. Short of that, I've only seen a slap on the wrist or a be more careful next time.

Clearly an ambush. Those men should be ashamed of the way they treated you but I'll bet they're not.

While it hurts now and will for awhile, you can look at this as an opportunity. Research the org, www.jwfacts.com is an excellent site that presents just the facts. Then, decide if its worth it to come back.

Welcome to the board. It's a great place to vent.

25

Are they really closing down branches in Martinique, Guadeloupe and French Guyana ?

by aligot ripounsous in

i just got this information on the phone, from a local jw family member : the society is definitely downsizing its worldwide institutional network and they intend to disband their bethels in the three french overseas departements of martinique, guadeloupe an french guyana.

i've not heard about the fourth departement la reunion in the indian ocean but i gather that they might go the same way there.. i wonder , what about the decent amount of money i donated to them in order to build one of those bethels , is it bound to be siphoned off to brooklyn ?

objection, that was not included in the deal.

Doubting Bro

BTW - The US version of the KM for November announced that Hawaii will not be a separate branch any longer and will be incorporated into the US branch (where it should have been anyway). I think last year Alaska and the Turks and Caicos islands were also folded into the US branch.

This is purely a business move and quite frankly one that should have been done long ago. You don't need branch offices in every country to run a publishing business, er, I mean religion.

They overexpanded into a declining market. Look at Barnes and Nobles who did the same thing.

66

Highlights of Annual Meeting 2010

by elderelite in

for those who are interested, the following changes were announced yesterday at the agm.

1) mts school has been done away with.

a) in its place two new schools have been formed.

Doubting Bro

Thanks for the info EE!

Really intereting on the new MTS. I like how Dozy put it, Gilead-lite. In thinking about this, wouldn't it be the perfect first step in eliminating the CO positional altogether and putting that CO-lite arrangement that has been speculated on this board for a few years? You could easily have these folks "trained" to handle a small number of congregations in their local area.

Are the wives going to be included in this or is it jus that married men will have the opportunity to participate?

They're definately working toward some end game and this is just another change along the way.

I'll bet the DOs are ticked about the additional oversight. If they eliminate the full time CO position, they would still keep the DO spot (according to the rumors). While there is plenty performance review material on COs (isn't that one of the central DO jobs?), the DOs are probably less reviewed or at least haven't been reviewed recently. So, they start a more formal review of their performance and can decide who to cut and how to hold.

40

MY FIRST POST!!!!!

by drewcoul in

jw
friends

i have been reading this website for months now.

i am a born in who holds absolutely no animosity toward any witness.

i have had weeks and weeks of trouble trying to log in, but i'm here now.. long story short, i am one of 4 children who were raised as witnesses.

Doubting Bro

Welcome Drew. Wow you've certainly seen quite a bit. Look forward to hearing more from you.

25

European Court of Human Rights to hear JWs tax case against France

by AndersonsInfo in

jw
friends

http://www.expatica.com/fr/news/french-news/europe-court-to-hear-jehovah-witness-tax-case-against-france_99836.html.

europe court to hear jehovah witness tax case against france 9-29-10. the european court of human rights said wednesday it had agreed to consider a case brought by the jehovah witness christian sect against the french government over taxation of donations.. in its request, the group alleged an infringement of the right to religious freedom saying the french government had tried to curtail its activities by demanding in may 1998 taxes on donations from its followers.. the sect said the move was an attempt to end the autonomy of religious communities.. french authorities say the donations were not raised from a religious source and so were subject to the same rules as other donations.. the 1998 demand was for 45 million euros (61 million dollars) at the time, but this amount had since reached 57.5 million euros, according to france.. it involves donations from 250,000 people over four years, an average amount of four euros per person a month between 1993 and 1996.. the court, based in the french city of strasbourg, however rejected a case of religious discrimination against the jehovah's witnesses.. .

2010 afp.

Doubting Bro

I may be wrong but I seem to remember the French categorized JWs as a "dangerous sect" and not a real religion and therefore not subject to the tax exemption.

But, I've also just read that the French government is saying that the donations were actually used to "purchase" literature and therefore subject to tax. In other words, the WTS is a publishing company that should be taxed as other publishing companies.

If that's the argument, I can see this sticking. The fact is that most of the donations are used for the purpose of literature production. Think about it, the number of WT and Awakes each month, KMs, books, bibles, ect. If they were to spin off the literature production operation into a for profit entity, I would guess they would need at least 75% or more of the total revenues to support it.

Without literature production, Bethel expenses would be really low. You would really only need a small office complex. DOs, COs and to some extent special pioneers are the only real clergy expenses. Of course, many Bethel heavies would also be included but still the number is pretty low. Plus, if you moved many of them to the for profit publishing company, there would be only a few left.

Interesting problem. If the WTS loses this case, it will have a profound impact on how they run their business going forward. The Swaggart case here in the US had a drastic impact on their cashflow. I can see this case having just as much of an impact. Couple that with the Spainish government making them pay into social security (which I'd bet the rest of the EU may look into) and the poor economy and you have a recipe for major operational overhaul.

25

European Court of Human Rights to hear JWs tax case against France

by AndersonsInfo in

jw
friends

http://www.expatica.com/fr/news/french-news/europe-court-to-hear-jehovah-witness-tax-case-against-france_99836.html.

europe court to hear jehovah witness tax case against france 9-29-10. the european court of human rights said wednesday it had agreed to consider a case brought by the jehovah witness christian sect against the french government over taxation of donations.. in its request, the group alleged an infringement of the right to religious freedom saying the french government had tried to curtail its activities by demanding in may 1998 taxes on donations from its followers.. the sect said the move was an attempt to end the autonomy of religious communities.. french authorities say the donations were not raised from a religious source and so were subject to the same rules as other donations.. the 1998 demand was for 45 million euros (61 million dollars) at the time, but this amount had since reached 57.5 million euros, according to france.. it involves donations from 250,000 people over four years, an average amount of four euros per person a month between 1993 and 1996.. the court, based in the french city of strasbourg, however rejected a case of religious discrimination against the jehovah's witnesses.. .

2010 afp.

Doubting Bro

That's what it sounds like to me as well.

I've been wondering what's been happening with this case. Ynot, you're right - if the WTS loses, I can see them shutting down any operations they have in France qicker than you can say "show me the money".

This could really have an impact on their operations around the world.

Should be interesting. I still think that you should not treat one religion differently from the others. I say, tax them all.